Nature is a very human concept
Introduction
European folklore tends to personification. The irresistible force of a storm or the smallest, most benign of creatures, are ascribed the qualities of human personality. They are powerful, frail; belligerent, gentle; they fight, they love… However capricious, they become more bearable as we imagine they are moved as we are moved. Thought of in this way, they no longer entangle us in an anarchy beyond our comprehension. Chaos becomes narrative, randomness character. The old tell their stories to the young. The young grow old themselves and recount a version of the tale, warmed and polished by their own experiences, by other stories they have heard. While, on one level, such tales are understood to be poetic fictions they are felt to hold a kernel of truth. To be both insight and homily. Vital threads in the cultural tapestry.
Today, we recognise that the natural world is complex rather than chaotic. Yet, all too often, we retain the premise implicit the narrativising of folklore – which anthropomorphises elemental nature in order to make it more relatable – that human beings are fundamentally separate and different from nature.
It is this perceived dualism that the artists Karoline Hjorth and Riitta Ikonen play with in their extensive body of work ‘Eyes as Big as Plates’. They do so by dissolving the border between human and nature, as if re-inducting the human into the larger ecology. Just another species within the teaming biosphere. They do not do this alone. Each image, each enactment, grows from a collaboration with the human subject and the relationship that person experiences with their surroundings. Like the storytellers of tradition, many of these people are in later life. But rather than recount the human stories handed down, they respond the songs of the earth, the physical poetry of wind and water, the amiability of trees. However strange or whimsical the final image may at first seem, what lies beneath the surface is a fearless receptivity. The images – and perhaps the subjects themselves – draw their strength from the landscape in which they reside. It is as if the natural environment has made each person a part of its own narrative of being – the lore of the land.
Alasdair Foster
Interview
How did your collaboration begin?
Riitta: I was studying at the Royal College of Art in London. I had a Norwegian friend there who had an intimate relationship with nature – back home she would talk to the rocks and mountains. Now, I’m from Finland and I certainly appreciate our lakes and bogs and mountains. But I don’t really talk to them. So, what was this about? I imagined that perhaps it had its roots in Nordic folklore and, if so, that the country’s elderly population might be closest to those traditions. I decided to look for a collaborator and, opening my laptop, I typed ‘Norway grandmother photography’ into Google. Karoline’s name came up – she had just published a book celebrating Norwegian grandmothers [‘Mormormonologene’ 2011].
Karoline: Those three words were to change both our lives. That was 2011, and ever since then we have been working together on our long-term project ‘Eyes as Big as Plates’.
[Left] © Karoline Hjorth & Riitta Ikonen ‘Pupi (Finland 2012)’ from the series ‘Eyes as Big as Plates’
[Right] © Karoline Hjorth & Riitta Ikonen ‘Kyrre (Norway 2019)’ from the series ‘Eyes as Big as Plates’
What was it each of you was looking for that you felt the collaboration could fulfill?
Karoline: In hindsight, probably a sense of adventure.
Riitta: In the beginning, I think we just set out to answer the simple question of whether rocks and lakes and paths are alive and whether they are worthy conversation companions.
How did you go about this?
Riitta: I think we’re still working on that… We started with an idea we had put together for an artist residency application. But we soon realised we were barking up the wrong tree. While we found that folk tales did have some relevance for contemporary Norwegians, it was perhaps a little foolish to think that older people might be closer to that lore than anyone else.
Karoline: Thinking of older people as a homogenous group all with the same knowledge, opinions, and behaviour – though it is prevalent in western society – is a lazy way of considering what older people have to offer. For us now, it is more important how the participants relate to their surroundings. What is the role of the imagination when they are connecting with their space? Can our relationship to nature really be explained so prosaically: a rock is just a straightforward lump of stone; a lake is just a wet place, entirely separate from us?
[Left] © Karoline Hjorth & Riitta Ikonen ‘Agnes II (Norway 2011)’ from the series ‘Eyes as Big as Plates’
[Right] © Karoline Hjorth & Riitta Ikonen ‘Agnes I (Norway 2011)’ from the series ‘Eyes as Big as Plates’
Riitta: We want to tell a contrary story. To encourage a new way of participating in and communicating with our surroundings. Early on we made a portrait of Agnes [above] – Karoline had previously photographed her for her mormor book. Agnes told us that she had made her first parachute jump at the age of eighty-five. Her second jump was a present from her family for her ninetieth birthday, which she described as “pure joy”. To us, Agnes is the perfect embodiment of the fabled north wind.
So, there is a definite connection between the character of the person and the folklorish ideas you are exploring?
Karoline: Maybe it is more real than you make that sound. For example, we had the honour of working with Andreas [below left] in Finnskogen [literally Forest of the Finns – an area on the border of Norway and Sweden populated by Finnish people in the seventeenth century; Forest Finns were recognised as a national minority in 1998]. He told us how he never felt alone in the forest because nature for him meant he was part of something much bigger. He believed that plants, trees, and every little thing has a life. It brought him great peace. Andreas was a true Forest Finn and we miss him dearly.
[Left] © Karoline Hjorth & Riitta Ikonen ‘Andreas (Norway 2019)’ from the series ‘Eyes as Big as Plates’
[Right] © Karoline Hjorth & Riitta Ikonen ‘Merete (Norway 2022)’ from the series ‘Eyes as Big as Plates’
Why do you call this extensive series ‘Eyes as Big as Plates’?
Riitta: It’s taken from a folk tale about a dog – or sometimes it’s a troll – that lives beneath a bridge and has eyes as big as plates. For us, it is a metaphor for the curiosity that guides these collaborations. We ask each participant what has happened in their life; how do they make sense of their surroundings. They dictate what happens during the shoot and we enter with wide open eyes – curious. It’s a kind of adventure.
How do you select the people you photograph?
Karoline: Mostly it’s by chance. Maybe in a noodle bar, on a walk at the beach, or while swimming. If we see someone charismatic in the opposite lane of the pool, we will swim over and say: Hello, we are artists, are you busy tomorrow? It takes a certain amount of nerve… And, of course, it is important that participation is voluntary.
[Left] © Karoline Hjorth & Riitta Ikonen ‘Andrea (Outer Hebrides 2019)’ from the series ‘Eyes as Big as Plates’
[Right] © Karoline Hjorth & Riitta Ikonen ‘Lísa (Iceland 2017)’ from the series ‘Eyes as Big as Plates’
How does the collaboration develop?
Riitta: Each image starts with a conversation. We ask our participants about their life, their environment, meaningful places, or the things they love. Our wearable sculptures are born from those conversations and constructed from the materials found in the surroundings. Our collaborators are central to the whole process. Before we get there, we don’t know if it’s going to be rainy, or windy, or snowy, or whatever – we just work with what is there, how things are at the time. The shoot can be slow and physically challenging. The person might be sitting in a bog, dressed as a bog, for three or four hours. Ordinarily, it’s unlikely one would go to a bog or forest and spend all that time silently, just being. We should do this more often – learn how to just be.
Karoline: It’s a sort of performance without an audience. And it gives us an excuse to walk up to these strangers and engage them. We really enjoy the interaction, the serendipity of it. You don’t know what will happen. In a way, the photograph at the end comes as a bonus.
So, do you see the person or the natural environment as the main focus?
Riitta: I think, perhaps, that its more about there not being a difference between the two. These are often places that hold a special significance for them. But the process is important. It can be really nice how they feel when the shoot is over when they say that they’ve never really looked at their surroundings in quite that way; that at that moment they really felt a part of this place.
[Left] © Karoline Hjorth & Riitta Ikonen ‘Scottie (Tasmania 2019)’ from the series ‘Eyes as Big as Plates’
[Right] © Karoline Hjorth & Riitta Ikonen ‘Brit (Norway 2018)’ from the series ‘Eyes as Big as Plates’
Riitta: This is Scotty [above left]. For the past twenty-five years he has lived surrounded by the rainforest on Bruny Island [off the south-east coast of Tasmania] and has a deep connection to the environment here. He described himself as a bit of a hermit, spending his time either in the bush or in the ocean. He often goes surfing at Coal Point, and this is where he floated in bull kelp for his portrait.
Karoline: I think, for us, when we look at the images afterwards we need to feel that there’s some surrealism there, otherwise it doesn’t work. And it’s very lucky that Riitta and I share the same sense of humour! Because humour is also important for getting across what we want to say. If it’s all very serious, then people just move on. I think humour is really a very powerful tool.
Although, as you said earlier, it was a mistake to assume older people were more interested in folk tales than anyone else, you did focus on working with older people for quite a few years. Why was this?
Karoline: For me it goes back to my grandma. She is a very shy person, and it is quite difficult to get behind her façade. I was curious to find out where this came from. And that led me to my project ‘Mormormonologene’ in which I portrayed Norwegian grandmothers (‘mormors’ in my native language).
Riitta: I was drawn to their attitude to life, their stamina and formidable curiosity for new experiences. These are active participants in our contemporary society, too often marginalised or reduced to a stereotypical cliché. Our project seeks to offer new perspectives on who each if us is and where we belong.
[Left] © Karoline Hjorth & Riitta Ikonen ‘Mr Choi Halabuji (South Korea 2017)’ from the series ‘Eyes as Big as Plates’
[Right] © Karoline Hjorth & Riitta Ikonen ‘Mrs Sim (South Korea 2017)’ from the series ‘Eyes as Big as Plates’
Karoline: We really loved their directness – knowing what they wanted from life. They were quick to say “I’m interested” or “I’m not interested”; “I’m busy”, “I’m not busy”; or “This moss was really nice, but now it’s too wet, I’m out of here. Bye…”. So, we stuck with older people for – what? – about eight years.
Riitta: Not that they are excluded now, but we’ve kind of shifted focus a little bit. The important thing is that the people we collaborate with have some kind of connection to the climate crisis. In recent years, the portrait series has focused on engaging the ‘indoor society’ – particularly teenagers – in active dialogue about environmental matters.
How are you going about this?
Riitta: We are running workshops that combine the powers of art, science, and activism, in ways that encourage participants to tell the story of people who are actively engaged in the climate emergency discourse, exploring the potential of art to propel active system change.
Karoline: We have a few pilots running in schools in the Nordic region that explore and draw attention to climate challenges in the students’ own localities. Part of the process involves creating wearable sculptures to be incorporated into photographic portraits taken by the young people themselves.
[Left] © Karoline Hjorth & Riitta Ikonen ‘Arne Johan (Norway 2023)’ from the series ‘Eyes as Big as Plates’
[Right] © Karoline Hjorth & Riitta Ikonen ‘Ragnhild (Norway 2022)’ from the series ‘Eyes as Big as Plates’
How did that shift of emphasis to climate change come about?
Karoline: It grew out of the project. The conversations we are having are shaped by the world and what is happening. We found that each conversation soon comes to: What changes are happening? Ok, how bad is it over here? Which species have disappeared? No snow, more snow? And now, after all these years, we have this project as a platform. This is our chance to do something.
Riitta: Maybe part of our agenda is just trying to get people to go outdoors. If you don’t know how they sound, smell, feel then you don’t really have a relationship with mountains, forests, lakes… In which case it is perhaps quite hard to care about the natural world. It’s otherness.
Karoline: But also, to question that division. Nature is a very human concept, yet how do we define it? What does it look like? It really would be helpful just to eliminate the word nature because its very definition can seem to separate us from it: here are humans, there is nature. I think our images challenge this linear thinking. Hopefully you can’t always tell who, and when, and what. Where I am and where my tree begins. And then perhaps we might begin to question other notional boundaries, be they about nation, or gender, or age. Recognise their fluidity…
Riitta: And we are changing too, getting older, and that’s cool. I really enjoy the idea that one day we’ll be out there shooting with our Zimmer frames, and maybe the person we’re photographing will be someone we have known since teenage. Like: bring me my oxygen…! I really enjoy that image. [laugher]
[Left] © Karoline Hjorth & Riitta Ikonen ‘Bob II (US 2013)’ from the series ‘Eyes as Big as Plates’
[Right] © Karoline Hjorth & Riitta Ikonen ‘Bob I (US 2013)’ from the series ‘Eyes as Big as Plates’
Given the spontaneity of these meetings, do you stay in touch with your collaborators after the shoot?
Karoline: It’s led to some big lifelong friendships. Like when we met Bob back in 2013 at the New York Indoor Gardening Society. He had this fabulous charisma but we had to leave. So, we slipped a note in his pocket saying: we love your style, please call us. He did, we made a portrait in Forest Park [Queens], and have remained friends ever since. If I’m having a good day, or a crap day, Bob is who I call. He is a rock, and the best pen pal in the world.
Riitta: But there’s also been some kind of challenging collaborators that I think in the moment: this person is really hard to get along with. But they stick in your mind because I think a variety of opinions and perspectives is important. I don’t want to be surrounded by people who only think like me.
In making these bodies of work, what have you each learned about yourselves that you did not previously know or understand?
Riitta: Great question… I definitely think we do not know yet. Maybe we have come to understand that we cannot understand, but it is so damn interesting to keep learning, keep questioning, to recognise that we are permeable.
Karoline: Maybe we have come to recognise that we have responsibility towards all lively beings. We have stopped travelling to exhibition openings or talks unless it is also to make new work. We are limiting our movements around the world as much as we can by imposing flight quotas on ourselves.
Riitta: In this project, the weather is one of our collaborators. And, important as it is to plan, we have learned it is even better to be fine about changing plans and moving on when they evaporate.
Biographical Notes
Karoline Hjorth was born in Oslo, Norway, in 1980. She holds a bachelor’s degree in photographic arts (2006) and a master’s degree in international journalism (2009), both from the University of Westminster, London. She has exhibited and published internationally and, in 2005, she received the Deloitte Award at the National Portrait Gallery, London. She has published two solo books: ‘Mormormonologene’ 2011 (Press Publishing 2011) and ‘Algoritmeanekdoter’ (Press Publishing 2019). She became the artistic director of Fotografihuset, Oslo, in 2022. Riitta Ikonen was born in Kouvola, Finland, in 1981. She holds a bachelor’s degree with honours from the University of Brighton (2005), and a master’s degree from the Royal College of Art, London (2008). She has exhibited nationally and internationally as a solo artist.
Riitta and Karoline began their creative collaboration in 2011 making work for their extensive series ‘Eyes as Big as Plates’ in Norway and Finland, as well as Australia, Czech Republic, the Faroe Islands, France, Greenland, Iceland, Japan, the Republic of Korea, Senegal, Sweden, United Kingdom, and the USA. This work has been widely exhibited in North and South America, Asia, Europe, and Oceania, and published in two monographs: ‘Eyes as Big as Plates Vol 1’ (Forlaget Press 2017), and ‘Eyes as Big as Plates Vol 2’ (Arnoldsche 2022). They continue to work together on the project.
photos: Leena Ikonen
This interview is a Talking Pictures original.